Laura Harnett | Seep: How to make sales sustainably

PWC reports that over 80% of consumers are willing to pay higher prices for sustainably produced goods so environmental responsibility is clearly a lucrative business as well as being the right thing to do. 

Laura Harnett is the Founder of Seep, the only B Corp-certified, plastic-free cleaning tool brand in Europe. Having raised a £50,000 Dragons’ Den investment from Trinny Woodall & Deborah Meaden, Laura & her team are on a mission to stop 1 billion plastic cleaning tools from entering landfill by 2030.  

Keep listening to hear Laura’s advice on learning how to sell as a first-time founder & how to make your sales process as sustainable as possible. 

Laura's advice:

• As a challenger brand, having spotted a gap in the market you will need to ensure you are confident about your supply chain, packaging, etc. before you approach retailers
• Selling direct to customers via a website is a great way to gain approval / test - and perfect - your product / do some market research 
• When iterating products, try them out with your direct customers
• The evidence of your DTC sales enables you to approach big retailers with confidence
• Target your marketing emails carefully and thoughtfully
• Persevere with this; it can take time
• Facebook and Instagram ads are helpful
• You will find other founders provide you with advice and support

FF&M enables you to own your own PR & produces podcasts.
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

FF&M recommends: 

• LastPass the password-keeping site that syncs between devices.
• Google Workspace is brilliant for small businesses
• Buzzsprout podcast 'how to' & hosting directory
• Canva has proved invaluable for creating all the social media assets and audio bites.

MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod.  Link &  Licence

Transcript

Interview

Juliet: PWC reports that over 80,000[00:00:00] PWC reports that over 80% of consumers are willing to pay higher prices for sustainably produced goods. So environmental responsibility is clearly a lucrative business as well as being the right thing to do. Laura Harnett is the founder of Seep, the only B Corp certified plastic free cleaning tool brand in Europe.

Having recently raised 50,000 pounds in Dragons Den via Trini and Deborah, Laura and her team are on a mission to stop 1 billion plastic cleaning tools from entering landfill by 2020 by 2030. Keep listening to hear Laura's advice on learning how to sell as a first time founder and how to make your sales process as sustainable as possible.

To you before it goes out. Um, so anything you want to say or can I say that again? That's absolutely fine. Or go? Hmm. Actually hang on, I'm just gonna rephrase that. Feel completely at ease. I'm gonna edit it, so, and then I'll send it to you. You can have a listen and just see you're happy with it. So don't feel like.

God, I'm being recorded. And that's it. And I'm sure your PR will have told you this already, but, um, when you go onto a podcast, that recording, when they click stop, that asset belongs, uh, belongs to the host. So you have sort of no rights to the audio. So it's always good for you to check that you do have rights to edit or see it before it goes out.

Laura: I had no idea.

Juliet: Yeah, and it's kind of, it is weird. I feel it's a bit wrong. I feel like it's your voice. You should have access to it. You should have rights to be able to go back and say, can you take it down? But technically. You don't, which is nuts.

Laura: And I have to say, so yeah, and we'll talk about it, you know, PR at the end, but it's, um, yeah, I've done quite a few just ad hoc podcasts, but never really, I. You know, I've never been trained how to do them right, so there's probably a more sort of professional way of doing it. So

Juliet: No. Well, that's the joy of forecast. They're so relaxed, and I think that's why they do really well, because people want to be a fly on the wall and they want to sort of feel like they're listening into somebody's chat. So I kind of, with clients, I was like, you don't want to. Be too rehearsed. 'cause then the lister feels awkward and that they're in a presentation not chat.

So, and also you speak so well, you like, I don't think you need to worry at all about how you're coming across you. You do your PR beautifully without even realizing. Don't worry.

Laura: Okay. Alright then, uh, and you know, it all depends on who I'm speaking to, right. So it's super nice, you know, like, I feel like I know you. And so it's, you know, it's, it is just a chat between two people over a coffee really,

Juliet: totally. Actually, the ones I do with friends are the ones that do perform better sometimes because it, I'm more relaxed as a host as well. I kind of like just forget that we're being recorded. Um, so yeah, honestly, it's super easy. And the whole, the whole crux of the podcast is that it's to help other people start their entrepreneurial journey.

I started in lockdown when I was starting the business, going, what the fuck am I doing? And I'll just ask load of questions. And now it's kind of like, are we scaling? Are we doing this? What are we doing? What are we not doing? And we are doing season focuses. So we are doing, we did productivity for the last six months and we're now in sales.

We've done health and wellness investment, all sorts of, um, niche titles. So this is the sales season, which says a lot, that it's taken 13 seasons to get to sales. And I'm like, oh. Five years in, I should have probably done this at the beginning, um, because I know nothing. Like you start a business and then suddenly you are like, unless you've got cashflow, you haven't got a business.

And people don't realize that sales is all 99% of the job probably. Um, but given what you've achieved with Seep, I think it's super interesting. Hang on, we'll get into it. We'll get into it. But yeah, it's, um, anything you want to share about what you've learned around sales would be epic.

Laura: And that makes sense now because I was like a lot of the sort of, it felt like it was kind of general stuff at the bottom, and then specific about sales at the top.

Juliet: Yes. So the general stuff is if we rattle through the season focus stuff, we've got stuff off our sleeve, but we've worked out that we never get to that stuff. And it, I think we've made a rod our own backs because the episodes are really niche and they go to someone searching for that particular title.

But it's nice to give the listener something really tangible, um, of what problem they're trying to fix. And I'm really interested to see how the season goes because a lot of. I think a lot of people starting businesses are just like, I'm gonna do a jewelry design. I was like, yeah, but you need to sell the product.

Um,

Laura: people actually wanna buy it, right? That's, yeah.

Juliet: You've gotta hope people wanna buy it. Otherwise, again, you don't have a business. And I think, yeah, so welcome. I get really, this is where I get really cringe. 'cause if I know someone, I'm like, oh, I've got to do that really awkward introduction. But, um, but I'll do the introduction and then we'll just have a chat.

Um, hi Laura. Thank you so much for joining. How to start up today for our sales season. Before we get into how to sell sustainable product and focusing on that, I'd love it if you could introduce yourself and a bit about the brand that you started.

Laura: So, um, I am, I am, my name's Laura and I'm the founder of a brand called Seep. And, um, my background before I became an entrepreneur I never thought I was gonna be an entrepreneur was, um, I spent 20 years in kind of consumer and. [00:01:00] Retail industry. So I was a buyer, I was then a, a consultant. And then my last role was, um, I was a director at Selfridges.

Uh, and, uh, then basically spotted this gap in the market around cleaning tools. So there are lots of kind of sustainable household products available, like toilet roll and, um, cleaning spray and washing detergent. But actually the tool that you use. With all of that. So the sponge or the cloth, um, actually there's very little sustainable alternatives So everything's made of plastic, um, and they look really ugly. And so that's what Seep is. So it's a sort of challenger, um, sustainable brand, um, in cleaning tools that also looks great.

Juliet: It looks great and it's doing great. And how, what, what year did you found? Seep?

Laura: So like lots of challenger brands around at the moment, we founded in sort of end of 2020, so it was sort of after the first proper lockdown, you know, the

Juliet: It's a really good time to start doing business.

Laura: Yeah. It just gives, it gave, gives you the head space and it just makes you think like if, if we had regular, everyone gave each other the time to do that sort of thing.

What kind of other businesses could be [00:02:00] born?

Juliet: Yeah. So actually for you, it gave you that thought, that air time to think it through and get going with it.

Laura: I had left Selfridges. I was doing some non-exec work. I was doing a little bit of angel investing into sort of female founded startups, which gave me an inside sort of view of how would you, how would you become successful? How do you drive sales? As quickly as possible at the gate. So, um, and, and I'd had the idea sort of early on, like maybe a year or earlier, um, just expecting someone else to do it and I'd be able to support them.

And then the lockdown me gave me the space to go, like, why, why not? Like let me, I'll give myself three months to do all the research and then if I can't find a really bloody good reason why I shouldn't do it, I'm just gonna go for it and announce it to the world. So that's, that was kind of my process.

Juliet: Amazing. And I mean, you've been on Dragons Den, you've just landed Trini as an investor. You, the brand from the outside is going from strength to strength, but I know it won't have been easy. What was the hardest thing that you found when you [00:03:00] launched the brand?

Laura: Oh, there's, there was so, so many hard things I think. Um. First off was, was making the product, you know, so there wasn't something that, you know, so our bestseller is like a kind of green and yellow. It's our version of the green and yellow washing up, um, sponge, which everyone recognizes. Everyone has one lurking behind their toilet.

Um, and so sort of creating that for it and for it to work as well as the traditional ones, I think was an issue. Like, you know, finding, finding a supplier or a manufacturer to do it, that was pretty hard. 

Juliet: Well, 

Laura: And

Juliet: Well, this is it. You've made a massive rod for your back in the sense that you want this brand to be the Challenger brand and there isn't something that's out there. So you're doing something for the first time, but you are making something that's probably a bit harder to make the regular way. So for you to have overcome that, and this is an episode that we want to focus on, sus selling a sustainable brand.

How did you learn to sell Seep?

Laura: Uh, so. In my mind, this was a brand that ultimately would be, I always describe myself as wanting to be the method on the other side of the aisle, you know, method sprays. There's an amazing podcast episode, um, on how I built this with Guy Raz about from the founders of [00:04:00] Method. And that was one of the little sparks that just made me go, actually, they're talking exactly like I'm thinking.

And um, so I knew that. Ultimately where we would scale would be in big grocery, in retail. Um, but I also knew having been on the other side of the fence as a buyer, that. You've gotta get everything right, right. Once you get your moment on the shelf and a retailer says, yes, I'll put it on my shelf. You can't mess it up.

And so we had to have, you know, product, we knew we would sell that. We knew how to do the packaging, we could do the supply. So our selling strategy was, yes, that's the end goal. Um, and where we think our biggest channel is gonna be. But actually let's start selling to customers directly on our own website.

Um. And get proper feedback and iterate really quickly on the product and show that there's customer love there and 

Juliet: Yeah. Well, and when you're DTC, you get that live feedback, and I know you are also a B Corp, so feedback is at the core of anything Bcap, But for you, that's live testing, isn't it? You can ab test your heart's content.

Laura: Yeah. [00:05:00] And you know, we have a little group of, um, customers called the Seep-Suite who, um, we send, so it is a play on C-suite. And so they, you know, they helped us very early doors with figuring, you know, sort of test product testing. We're currently doing some iterations on one of our products at the moment 'cause it's not, you know, it's not good enough.

And so they will then help us and test it and tell us how they're using it. And so that, that stuff is just gold. Gold dust and it gives you the, the a, the sort of ammunition and the proof points when you are ready to go to kind of an Ocado or a Tesco. They have some evidence that, that people want it.

Juliet: And did it also in that feedback, did it highlight things that you didn't realize were talking points that actually have become more of a talking point?

Laura: Definitely. So, you know, one of the things that we found out was, um, 'cause our, like our bestseller, which is the washing up sponge, it has sort of loof on the top and it's sort of wood sort of. Sponge made of cellulose on the bottom and the loafer kind of keeps hold of the washing up liquid. It kind of doesn't all wash off where as you can, you know, the sort of traditional ones, the kind of washing up stuff goes crack quickly.

So we found that that was something that people were [00:06:00] talking about. Um, you know, and then all the issues, right? We've had, you know, it was too stiff so people were finding it was too stiff. So then we made it softer and then it was too soft. And so that constant iteration, um, has only been possible 'cause of our D two C business.

Juliet: And you are not losing your golden ticket on a shelf. So you've got it all your ducks in a row when you are ready to go into a big retailer. To have that feedback and that product like perfection.  

Laura: and I would say it's, it's not perfection yet, but it's really, you know, is much closer than it would've been if we'd gone straight into retail in the first year or two. And so, you know, what we're learning in retail, which is quite different, again, it's probably quite important for selling, is that when you are a D two C business.

You often have, you know, a video or an ad that someone, you have a few seconds to explain what it is, the key benefits, and to grab people's attention in a really engaging way. Whereas in retail, you've got a shelf that. Someone has maybe walked past with a bit of luck, they want a cleaning tool. And so they might stop there, but they're, they're, you know, out of habit, they will be picking up the, the two or three things that they've always done.

And so then how do you make sure that your [00:07:00] product on shelf is, people understand immediately what it is and they're kind of excited to try it. And in your kind of Yeah. It's, you know, and prepared to spend more money on it. And so that's been a real learning for us.

Juliet: and if somebody has no experience of sales, and this is something I keep going back to in the last five years of my own business of like I. No one teaches you these things. You have to kind of scrabble around and learn the hard way. Typically, when it comes to these things of your day-to-day that you aren't skilled in, if someone has no experience, what advice would you give them and where to start?

Laura: So I think if you're a founder business, I thought sales would be really easy because I've been on the other side of the table, which is a buyer, and so I was like, well, I know what a buyer's looking for,

Juliet: Well, what are they looking for? 

Laura: So, yeah, that's a great question. So, So, and our, and my sectors, particularly retail, right? So they'll want to know that it hits their margin.

Aspirations are all very, very strongly targeted on percentage gross margin. They're going to want to know that there there'll be a good rate of sale. Um, so, uh, you know, how often, how many am I gonna sell per store per week? And so those are the two really [00:08:00] important. Sort of financial, um, questions.

They'll want to know what are you gonna do as a business to support this growth? And so how much money are you gonna invest on in promotions and visibility? Um, and so that ultimately that will drive your rate of sale. Uh, and they'll also want to know things like, you know, how does it fit with the rest of my category?

You know, is it going to actually. Am I gonna make less money? 'cause I'm giving you a spot, I'm taking something out, I'm giving you a spot on my shelf. And actually I might make less money on that than what was there before. Or someone who's buying this thing, this other product where I'm making loads of money 'cause I've got great gross margin.

Actually, all of a sudden this customer may start buying you yours and um, it might not be what's right for the category. So you have to think when it's in retail, you have to think about. That whole p and l, that the buyer and the buyer is the ultimate decision maker. You know, does it all make sense? Does it stack up?

And are you helping them get to, um, you know, improve, you know, an improvement in their category? And so I knew all of that 'cause that's, that's how I used to work. But actually. This, A lot of the skill in the early [00:09:00] days is how do you, how do you actually get their note, their attention? How do you get an email into their inbox?

They're probably getting dozens a week, if not hundreds. How do you cut through that then get to the first meeting then, you know, so, so there were 

Juliet: It's very similar to PR because we often say that you don't want to send the full press release in a hundred high-res and all the story in one email. The first pitch needs to get you to maybe a coffee. Coffee needs to get you to a into person meeting that needs to get you to follow up, that sends to the picture editor and dah, dah, dah.

You can't expect that first email to get you on the coverage, but also the standout that you get hundreds of emails a week, how do you get the cut through? But for you being, having been on the other side, then you're like, ah goodness. How did you overcome that?

Laura: I think to some extent it probably held, held me back a bit because I knew, you know, what buyers are looking for and the stakes, you know, about how good you need to be and reliable. You know, I probably sort of was like, I, I waited quite a long time before start, we started to do it. But I think, um, you know, we 

Juliet: I played hard to get.

Laura: yeah, exactly.

I mean, we tried everything. So, you know, I think. If I were to recommend, like what, what's the strategy that you should use? I think especially for retail buyers, [00:10:00] send your emails. It's probably similar to pr. Be really sort of thoughtful about what you send. So don't just send another, you know, one every week or every month saying, just following up on my last email.

Would you like to 

Juliet: Oh, putting this to the top of your inbox? 

Laura: ugh, you know, so you've gotta go. Right. Well. You know, I saw in the press that this is going on, this is what we've just done, and therefore I think it's a good, you know, a good opportunity. So they have to all be really tailored and um,

Juliet: to their client. And the same, same again with editor. The editor is the gatekeeper to their reader of magazine they like. We meet clients when we're training them to do their own pr. Well, I want to be on Vogue said, but why does a Vogue reader want to read about you on Vogue? And why does the Vogue editor want to give you the opportunity You have to reverse engineer it every time, 

and I think a lot of people don't realize less is more.

If you send five very targeted pitches, that's far better than 500

Laura: So much better. And actually, if you think about what's worked, you know, if I think about what's worked for me, you know, and I, I get lots and lots of, um, pitches from agencies and that's the thing. Like, I know what's a good one. And so I'd say I. You know, if someone's starting out in the sort of retail world and wants to, wants to [00:11:00] get their brand on shelf, then super tar, you know, consistent, not too often.

Really great emails and then making the most of, you know, it's hustling and networking really hard. So we went to a sort of meet the buyer event. I'd been trying to get into a cardo for two years. Um, and I, you know, I found out that they were gonna be there and so paid the amount that you had to pay for, you know, and then.

Managed to meet 

Juliet: Is soft stalking effectively.

Same with editors. 

Laura: talking and, um, and being, yeah, and being really clear about who you want to go after. So we really knew the retailers we wanted to, to target first. And so, um, and I think for retailers as well, it's, they want to know, is this gonna work? Because I've, it's, it's a little bit like saying you are asking 'em to take a risk.

You're saying take something off the shelf that you know. Kind of works or you know that it's selling and put mine up there and you're just gonna have to hope  work, have hope it, you know, and it's, and so you are asking 'em to take a risk that any data you can find that shows that it's gonna work, 

Juliet: Yeah, but also double good slash bad is the fact that you are producing a product that will last longer [00:12:00] and they're not gonna be bought as regularly as the ones that aren't as good for the environment. 

Laura: Absolutely. Julia, you just picked.  

Julia, 

Juliet: It's like this is, this is great for the planet and this is where it's really interesting 'cause we're both a B Corp or we work for B Corp companies that we haven't have started.

It's that people in planet above profit. So you've got profit, you are, you're not a charity, but you are, you are fixing a greater problem, but you are making it really hard for yourself.

Laura: I would, I would, I see them all as even. Right. So you can't do one at the expense of others and

Juliet: Well, you need profit to be able to affect change, and I think there's no shame in that either.

Laura: Yeah. And so I remember we got this, um, some results back. So we talk about our sponge SC is lasting sort of somewhere between one and two months and we sell this one year supply and then we got some data back that suggested that what we thought was a one year supply is actually lasting people 18 months to two years.

And we're like, it

Juliet: Amazing for the planet. Terrible for the

profit.  

Laura: for, for repeats. But actually we've got, so one of it's a repeat rate, right? That's what, um, retailers are interested in it and D two C. [00:13:00] So luckily our repeat rate, you know, we get some visibility of it and it is pretty good. Um,

Juliet: 'cause you can't track your referral rate. 'cause if someone's telling someone else about this amazing brand that they found, you are never gonna know. Oh, it's so like pr. It's so frustrating because it's like, I know there is a return and investment that I can never, ever put a

monetary value against it. 

Laura: yeah, you can't, and actually the more channels you have, so you have your D two C channel, we then have a Amazon, which we see as a sort of separate channel. And then retail. And not all retail is the same, but that's broadly how we say it. And you know, something like, um, what we spend on Instagram and Facebook, so meta.

We allocate all of that cost to our D two C channel, but actually that halo effect has this amazing, you know, that could be that somebody then is popping up and buying it off the shelf in Tesco. So, yeah, very. You must, You must, I know get that sort of ROI 

Juliet: Yeah, I I often want CFOs that I work with to sit with me in an editor meeting, and then they'll understand. It's like, right, you pitched the story and see how they find it. It's like, okay, that's the value. I get it. Okay. Never make me do that again because you, I've just [00:14:00] had to live with the fact I'm never gonna know how much value I can bring back to a brand through editorial and pr.

And when we are looking at our business, and I'm doing, I did a TEDx talk and I did the Trinny elevator pitch as well. Um, You did it as well recently. So you are doing these things and you know, in your gut it's the right thing for your brand and your business. But I know as my own MD I can't know exactly what value that's brought back to our bottom line.

But you have to do it and you have to do multiple things because if you just do one channel, it won't work. Um, but when you're running a business, when it all comes down to numbers, and this is the thing of doing the season, if you don't have sales, you don't have a business. And I think a lot of people forget, say, well, I just want to be a skincare designer or jewelry designers.

Like, you have to make money. You, you can't avoid it. And typically, I dunno if you'd agree with this, but a lot of the female founders I know, and I hate the fact we have to split it out. It should just be founders.

Laura: Just be fine. 

Juliet: Yeah.

Some people who start businesses shy away from numbers, oh no, no, I don't wanna talk budgets, I don't want to talk p and l.

They're like, you have to, you have a responsibility to your [00:15:00] business to know your numbers. Like there tomorrow.

Laura: Yeah. And, and I think it's a superpower if you do, because it drives your decisions. You can make, you can be really smart about where you put your investment, I guess if you're not naturally, if you're more of a creative, then you've gotta find somebody who is a great partner who can help you with that, right?

So, um.

Juliet: Knowing yourself as a founder as well, of knowing your strength, knowing your weaknesses. Um, but most,

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 I think most people say that the businesses that fail aren't failing. 'cause they're not good ideas. They're failing 'cause they don't have cashflow, hence the sales focus. Um, and for you, when you are selling to your first customers, [00:16:00] DTC, how did you find them?

Was it through social media? Was it through word of mouth? How, how did they define you even.

Laura: Yeah, I mean at the beginning we just throw, threw everything. Well, we, I say I, you know, at the beginning it was

Me, 

Me, myself and I, and, um, one of my oldest friends who's my numbers, you know, I'd say I'm relatively good at numbers, but she's, she's the one who kind of feeds them to me. And, um, you know, you know, she was amazing.

But then, yeah, so very early on, you know, it was using networks, it was using, you know, um, going onto forums, right, and just talking, you know, about places like Nextdoor and all of the Facebook groups and,  

Juliet: So just telling people about the business and

Laura: Just telling people you know, you know, and I just think back and I was like, God, I, you know, that was real hustle at the time.

I mean, we, we don't do that very much anymore or at all. Um, and then because it was lockdown actually, you sort of meta, you know, sort of Facebook and Instagram ads were unbelievably as, you know, sort of, um, cost effective as a way of getting 

Juliet: Yeah. And did you teach yourself how to run it or did you pay a, a specialist to help you set that up?

Laura: I at the time, like right at the beginning. So we've gone through lots of kind of phases of it, right at the beginning, um, I was very lucky. My brother-in-law is, um, a digital, uh, like a [00:17:00] specialist and, uh, ad specialist, not for kind of consumer, but he got us up and running, you know, uh, you basically begged, borrow and steel and, uh, from every, you know, not steel, but like, you know. He, he helped us in the early days and um, and then once we had some traction, then we, we could bring some specialists in.

Juliet: Because I've heard that is a really effective way alongside paid search. And I'm sitting on our business, we're about to hit five years in April, and we've never paid for any marketing and 

it. 

Well, thank you. It is and it isn't, and a lot of people say, well, you could have scaled far faster. I'm like, but I didn't want to.

I'm, I'm kind of fine with our growth. Should I be fine with our growth? And I, I am fine with it, but I'm, I am looking at our business and tracking our numbers, tracking our inbound referrals. That isn't a tap that I can control, so I wouldn't want to see if we were to be proactive, where would that spend go?

And it's re it's huge. It's, it's a very complex minefield out there. And I think that whole, as we were talking earlier, automate, delegate soul. Finding specialists that can hold your hand and teach you, um, or do it for you at really high standard is important, but you, to anybody listening will waste time and money on the wrong people.

And [00:18:00] that is part of it, 

unfortunately. 

Laura: to learn, you know, you, 

you've got to learn. So, you know, I would say we're relatively careful, but we. You know, you get referrals and not all of them are great. And you know, I think at one point it was a really tough moment. I think it was in like 2022 or 2021. We, um, you know, as everyone came outta Covid.

There were some changes to iPhone and iOS 14 and that had an impact on advertising and you know, we were like, oh my God, like what's going on? And somebody was like, oh, you must use this guy. You know, he's amazing. And um, he was basically work, you had a full-time job working as a digital marketing specialist in a huge scale up.

And he wanted to make a bit of money on the side. And so we were like, oh my God, this is amazing. We get this like incredible brain. But actually he. He didn't know how to start to do, you know, he wasn't used to having tiny budgets where every penny counted and you know, and so, and actually that probably set us back like three, three to six months, that mistake.

And so you've got to, I think,

Juliet: Case studies. It's so hard 'cause you, you get sort of, oh, if they've worked for, I dunno, for me, I've come from Chanel background, so big brands, and now I've got five years of working with independents so I've got some proof [00:19:00] points and we've got case studies and decks with them as our evidence points. Not the fact I worked at Chanel, but same case, you want to find someone that has worked on a similar business to yours and you don't get.

Sort of, um, starry-eyed about the big brands. 'cause you are not a big brand when you start 

Laura: And it, it's, it's, very, yeah, it's very, it's very different and you know, I think that's been one of the most, one of the best things about being a founder is how generous other founders are with. Recommendations. It's just been, you know, when you're in a bigger business, you are actually very inwardly

focused and, um, yeah, you're siloed, you know, in your teams.

And actually, I don't know, or whatever it would be, probably wouldn't give you a recommendation of who to use for whatever. But actually in the founder community, you know, I'm 

Juliet: Well, 

it's live examples and it's live references and that's where obviously your reputation is everything, but people who are saying, well this person's really good for that type of problem, really listen to that. Um, but also going back to your client base, I was gonna say, has your client changed over the last four years?

Laura: It is [00:20:00] really different, right, so, so customers quite broad. We have two. Two types of customer. You know, we've got the end customer who are the people who are actually using the product, the who we are selling to directly on D two C. And so that will be like our core customers called Amelia. We call her Amelia.

Um, and uh, uh, you know. 

Juliet: avatar mapped out.

Laura: We've got

our avatar, you know, 35 to 55, pretty busy, you know, isn't gonna potentially go down to a zero waste store, but wants to be able to make easy switches. But that she's really, she needs them to work, you know, so that's. Um, so performance is everything. So that's kind of our core customer.

And then we've got obviously our, like retail customers, you know, so our, you probably, you would call them clients we call, you know, so people like Ocado and Rita and, um, Tesco all the way through to like wholesalers and then the independent stores on the high street. So, um, yeah,

Juliet: You are in the I I've seen obviously over the years, your progression. Can you rattle off all the stores that you are in now?

Laura: No. No. Which is a kind of a good and a bad thing, isn't it? So like in the early days, I could probably rattle off all of the little independents.

Juliet: ' cause there's so many. No, I was just saying the big names.

Laura: Oh, the big names. So like, yeah, so Tesco, Tesco, Ocado, whole Foods, planet Organic, [00:21:00] Robert Dyas Lakeland. Um.

Which I'm sure I'm missing, I'm missing some out. Um,  

Juliet: you you are there. You are on the high street. 

Laura: yeah, we're on the high street and then the, in like the little independents that have been, that are the sort of unsung heroes, often of the challenger brand community.

So I'd say again, you know, this is, this episode's all about sales. Actually. If you can't get into an Ocado, you know, you are just starting out, you know, getting your product. Into your local High Street store, seeing what they think, looking at what it looks like on shelf, understanding how it's performing, you know, that will get you the next, maybe, you know, you know, the one that's got three independent stores and then that one will get you, you know, so, um, and it'll get you into wholesalers.

So that's why I don't really know how many independents we've got. 'cause all the wholesalers are then selling into independence as well. So, 

Juliet: It's Amazing. And what would you say is your most valuable channel outta that matrix?

Laura: I, it depends on how you define value. And so, um, you know, financially, so if I look ahead, um, that it's gonna be retail, you know, that's where this. Brand will thrive. And, uh, you know, that that's where people ultimately buy these kind of products. And so that's, and, and it's the e sort of, in some ways the most scalable one, [00:22:00] right?

So you have one, one conversation with the buyer and their team, and you are, are shifting serious amounts of volume. And so that's, that's what will transform the, sort of, financially transform the business. But I love D to CI love it, you know, It's, 

Juliet: it's real. 

Laura: it is real so we were on Dragons Den a few weeks ago and like, you know, like like everybody, you know, we had a big surge in sales.

Like we ran outta stock. Even though we thought we'd like, you know, we'd, um, we'd really carefully planned and, you know, quite rightly customers are wondering where it is. And so I have, we all had to jump on our customer ser you know, the sort of inbound in inbox yesterday. And gosh, there's nothing like just re you know, it reminds you of who you are doing this for and who your own customer is and um, actually how bloody lovely they all are.

So I think it's, yeah.

Juliet: Quite a warming moment, but going back to that, making a rod for your own back and making it harder than you needed to, but actually you, I know you, you needed to do this. How do you make your sales process as sustainable as possible? Because I think a lot of people who don't realize B Corp think it just means you're not gonna fly on airplanes anymore.

Whereas actually you have to audit your [00:23:00] entire process or entire supply chain. Anyone. And I'm a service-based business. Right. And I found it really difficult. And you are producing a product, which I know is way harder with B Corp. How have you managed that sales process from a sustainable perspective?

Laura: It's really tough, um, but you, it has to come from within, so.

Juliet: Because presumably you'd have to have turned some down at some point.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, yeah, so we have lots of opportunities to improve our product margin if we shift where we're producing it from. So less ethical factories. Um, we can use cheaper, um, cheaper delivery options in the uk. Um, but they don't have the same eco credentials and they have a shitty rep. Can I say shitty

Juliet: Yes, you can say anything you like. It's the joy of podcasting.

Laura: You know, they've got crappy reputations. And so it's really, you know, and and ultimately I think that will reflect in the long-term value of the business. And yeah, you know, people, people aren't idiots. And so I just came off a call this morning with a big media company. I can't say who it is, but they, and it's, it's about winning some media exposure and I had the, their head of human rights.

Sort of testing our supply chain. Oh, do we know how much, you know, our factories are paying our employee, the employees? You know, [00:24:00] can we point to all the things in our supply chain that guarantees that this is being produced under ethical conditions? Like if people, people are getting serious about this stuff, which is, it is, it's great.

Um, 

Juliet: it's good to feel a bit uncomfortable and then go, you know what? We have got the answers 'cause that makes me reassured that it isn't all greenwashing.

Laura: yeah, and I think it's. And that is the hope because there's so much greenwashing and I know that somebody could go and do what we are doing potentially and cut, cut corners, and I know that it's out there. Um, but it's great when bigger businesses actually ask the right questions and, 

Juliet: Well, this is, I think that was something like, I'm gonna get this wrong, but I think 98% of the UK. Is an SME and 78% of that is a service based business. And when we got B Corp, I said, why would you bother becoming B Corp? You are tiny in service based. And I was like, well, if we all did it, then we'd all be better off.

But it was, our education through that process was that it is the new small independence that are trying to lead the way and shift the dinghy, not the Titanics. But it's so exciting to hear that the Titanics now are turning around being like, [00:25:00] hang on, we need to get our ducks in a row 

Laura: Yeah, I mean, how brilliant is that, that, and that they wouldn't, you know, so they've basically said, we are through, we, we've kind of, but we want to double check that ethically you are what you say you are. And I'm like, that is ama, that's honestly amazing. And actually, if only everybody could do that.

Juliet: Completely. Well, I think that's also the problem is that I think unless you are paying for an ad, you can actually, as a brand, say anything you like and not be sued. So you could have something on your website, on your editorial press release, on your Instagram. You could claim a lot of things, but you are not.

Technically doing anything illegal, unless you're paying for an ad, I might have to check that. So people are just absorbing this content going, oh, well, they say they're bad, they must be. It's not the case. But then there's also the green hushing where people 

don't tell the world how

good they're doing. 

Laura: going to, they're, they're gonna make Which also isn't helpful, right? So, so there's some probably some great things going on, but if people dunno about them, then.

Juliet: Well, this is what I love about your communications. 'cause you're like, we're trying our best. We are. We're putting our best foot forward. We're not perfect and no business will ever be perfect. I mean, we turn on a light [00:26:00] bulb, we're not sustainable. So the fact that you are leading the way in saying that and and proving it can be done successfully and your business is going from strength to strength, I feel like it's an incredible.

Um, example that new brands can look at and go. In the last five years, Laura has managed to do all of these things and helping the planet at the same time. 

Laura: Yeah. 

And it's, and it's, and it should be in that, um, you know, we very purposefully built the brand to be, you know, like on three pillars. So one is, um, easy, easy to use. So like we know that in this category, performance is everything. So we need to, and actually our next iteration of our packaging has a lot more about that in it.

Um, it, it has to be easy on the eyes, it has to look great, and then it. Just happens to be eco and we don't need to put it into a green and brown box to make it look eco. Um, and I think, yeah, it's assumed and I think that's the sustainable brands that will win the future. That's what that, that's what it's gonna be. 

Juliet: So I hope we'll get to that point where you take it for granted that every business is ethical and you don't have to answer. And again, going back to that female founder thing, it's like you're a founder. You don't have to call out there, you're a woman one day, but I know we're not there yet, so we have to keep highlighting it [00:27:00] 

and. So what we do with our guests is that we have a question from the previous episodes guest who is Guy Blaskey who founded Pooch and Mutt and is now founded this amazing Trash Watch brand. And his question for you, which I love are, what are your measures of success?

Laura: So I love, I love this. So we have like three measures of success. You know, I'm not gonna say we're perfect about always being equally focused on all three. Uh, we really aren't. But I think if I, if I had to, to pick them. So one is a, is a financial measure. Like we we're a challenger brand, you know, so for us that's.

You know, that sales and ultimately kind of, we're not quite profitable, but we're hacking away at it. So, um, which is margin contribution. So that is telling us, I think it's an overall North Star to say we're, we've got traction in the market. People want, people want this product and are prepared to pay for it.

And like you said, like you haven't got a business. If you haven't, if you're not bringing your money, then nothing else can, can exist 

really So. Yeah, so we are pretty sales, sales and margin obsessed. And um, so that would be the first one. And [00:28:00] then the second one is NPS, so that's come we don't, yeah, so NPS and reviews.

And so we, we have a sort of measure of it through our sort 

of review. Oh, how brilliant. Uh, so this came from my Selfridges Day, so net promoter score.

Juliet: Ooh.

Laura: Net promoter score. promoter score. So this is the, um, it's kind of the ultimate measure of whether somebody backs a brand. And often in surveys you'll be asked, would you recommend this to somebody else?

And you're given a score outta zero to 10, and that is the official net promoter score. And so whenever you're asked that question, that is a business that's trying to collect. Their NPS and so, and if you are, I think it's eight, nine, or 10, that's a positive. If you are, um, six or 7, 6, 7, it's, it's neutral and anything less than that is negative.

And so. Some businesses, you can imagine, like a sort of broadband, particularly bad broadband provider will be negative. Um, and you know, Selfridges would be in the sort of fifties, sixties. That would be really good. so, um, yeah, so that it's a really, it's the pure, it's kind of a very pure immediate measure of actually is this, is there brand love here?

Juliet: Because yeah.  

that's everything. And that word of mouth, everyone's like, oh, we want to, again, we want to be in the ft. We want, it's like your word of mouth is [00:29:00] the best PR you can possibly get if somebody else is saying that you are good. It has so much more weight. I often call it the mascara effect because you'll see a friend wearing mascara and, oh, your eyelashes, what?

Juliet: That direct, really valuable word of mouth where someone said, oh, it's amazing. You must, you much, much more likely to trust that than an 

Laura: Yeah. 

Juliet: of content.

Laura: So I think, I mean anyone, so NPS is what we have in my old corp in my corporate career, would be the only way that you can really measure yourself versus other, other brands, uh, in a very quick way. And then I'd say just the third KPI, and I think you asked for two. But anyway,

the third one is that we, it has to be an impact one.

So our kind of North star, our mission is, you know, we want to save a billion. billion item, like plastic cleaning tools from going to landfill in or incineration. Um, and by 2030. And so we track that and um, which is obviously a function of volume. Um, and so yeah, that's, that's what we track as well.

Juliet: But it's achievable. And that's what's so exciting is that you can actually see this change come into effect and be responsible for it. And so responsible is quite a loaded word, but in a good way, you know, responsible for helping us all help planet a little bit more. But I know I love it because you created.

Everyone knows that yellow and green sponge, but you've created something so much more beautiful to have in your kitchen. 

Laura: Yeah, it is. And then you you can, you know, can cut them up at the end and put them in your [00:30:00] home compost or in your food waste, which is another way, like our mission, which is to avoid, you know, to stop a billion items going to landfill. It's, it's not just plastic items, it's not just the end product, but it's how people sort dispose of it at the end of life, of the life cycle as 

well. 

Juliet: So clever, huge congratulations, and what would your question be for our next guest?

Laura: So my question would be how do you, you know, I, so every hire you make as a business is so important as a small business counts. And so if you can, um, so my question would be how do you retain, like, attract and then retain? The best kind of young, especially the young talent that, uh, you need in, in a small business like  like, you 

ours.

Juliet: I love, it's everything. And who is it? some very famous, I was listening to last week, I need to invent a podcast app that captures audio, captures nuggets 

rather than screen capture stuff. 

Because he was saying,

yeah. Or it can send a paragraph of a bit of audio, like you can share a post on Instagram because I listen to a lot and I never remember where I've heard it.

And I think this one guy. Super successful. Oh, it might have been Alex or Mosey, so many, many companies he's investing in. He's tapped into loads of different people. He said [00:31:00] sooner that you become successful, the more you realize you're just head of hr. That's all you are doing is people and you're just bringing in people, managing the wrong people out, trying to attract the right person.

That's gonna be the golden ticket to getting your business over that line that you are aiming for. 'cause it's not you. Because if it was you, you'd have done it last year. And I was like, oh God, do I really wanna be hr? No. Can we find, you know, it's, it's really hard and people make a break job and people change.

You know, you could have a brilliant person one year and they change and they're not so great the next, or vice versa. 

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And it's, and I think it's also okay if you're bringing sort of younger people at the beginning of their career into the organization, it's fine. You know, they will want to find other roles because that's how they learn. And so that's okay. But I, yeah, I'd be really interested in, in hearing any tips for, 

Juliet: Well, I've said to my lot, you will leave this business at some point and I will be sad about it, but let me help you get the next job. I'm not gonna stop you, so just let me know when you're ready if I can't grow your role. Let me help you 'cause I've got 20 years experience on you. So, you know, and they're like, what?

I was like, A, you don't then have to lie to [00:32:00] my face if you're going to an interview. B, let's just be really honest about this and C, you know, I want you to do well and touch wood, we've just had, you know, the best people and it, that is everything. I think in a small business, when you work this hard,

Laura: Yeah, 

everyone, 

everyone matters, right? You can't, everyone has to pull in the same direction. So it's uh, and as hard as possible. So yeah, my question.

Juliet: Thank you. Thank you so much, Laura, for your advice. It's wonderful chatting to you and best of luck with everything. That Seep is about to crack on with world domination, hopefully.

Laura: Thank you so much for having me on, and it's an absolutely lovely thing to do on a Friday afternoon, so thank you. 

Juliet: if you'd like to contact Laura, you can find all of her details in the show notes along with a recap of the advice that she has so kindly shared. Brilliant. I'm gonna click stop and it should upload to Friendly Cloud. If you'd like to contact Laura, you can find all of her advice in the show notes along with a recap that she has, along with We do not take advertising on how to start up and we want to keep this show purely editorial, but in order of us to do that, we need you, the listener. We know you're there. We can see the numbers, but we just need you to click like or subscribe in your podcast directory. We'd also love it if you could rate and review, but that might be a step too far.

However, if you do [00:33:00] and you screen, grab it and email it to us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com. We will book in a half hour one-on-one consulting call with myself, Juliet Fallowfield, founder Fallowfield and Mason. [00:34:00] 

Thank you so much .